The Bookster Podcast: Creating a product
- Episode 11
Who's Talking?
- Simon Beattie
- Robin Morris
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How did Bookster create its' software product?
Episode Overview: Welcome to the Bookster podcast, where we dive into the journey of building a successful SaaS company for holiday rental management. In this episode, Simon sits down with Robin Morris, CEO and Co-founder of Bookster, a SaaS holiday rental software company based in Edinburgh, Scotland.
Join them as they discuss the origins of Bookster, its challenges and successes, and the inner workings of managing a tech-driven rental business. If you're interested in the intersection of software development, property management, and entrepreneurship, this episode is packed with insightful and helpful takeaways.
Key Discussion Points:
Introduction to Bookster: How Bookster helps holiday rental businesses manage bookings, communication, and marketing.
The SaaS Business Model: Insights into Bookster’s subscription-based approach and its relevance to the rental industry.
Challenges and Triumphs: Robin shares the biggest obstacles Bookster has faced and how the team overcame them.
Tech and Innovation: How technology plays a crucial role in improving customer experience and property management.
Advice for Entrepreneurs: Robin’s advice for those starting their journey in the SaaS and rental tech industries.
Takeaways:
A glimpse into the day-to-day operations of a growing SaaS business. The importance of customer feedback in product development.
Strategies for balancing growth with quality service. Robin’s personal tips for aspiring tech entrepreneurs.
Credits
- Host
- Simon Beattie
- Production
- Joint Beat Productions
- Music
- Jonny Brannen
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Transcript
- Hello, I'm Simon, and welcome back to the Bookster podcast from inside the SaaS holiday rental software company Bookster based in Edinburgh, Scotland.
Minute 1
- and Co-founder of Bookster Robin Morris.
Robin, how are you this morning? I'm very well, Simon.
How's yourself? Good.
Very well, thank you.
Thanks for your time again today.
No problem.
I struggled through the rain this morning and made it into the office.
It's a classic Scottish summer day.
It Was, it was Rie, Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
You wouldn't think it's the, the middle of June.
Yeah.
Um, and obviously big day today with the, the football starting tonight, Robin, so you'll be glued to that, I'm sure as well.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So now we've, uh, pegged this in time, this podcast recording.
That's true.
Yeah.
Ourselves.
Yeah, that's Good.
That's good.
That's good.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, I'm, uh, I'm excited and nervous and Well, did, did we ask for a prediction then for some, since we're talking about it, a prediction for tonight's match? Well, if the Germans compete Brazil seven one, I dunno Minute 2
- what they could do to Scotland, but, um, yeah, I, uh, you, I dunno, I'll be, uh, I'll be optimistic.
I think.
1, 1, 1, 1.
Right.
Okay.
One, one.
Well, at some point later on in the series, we'll come back to this and we'll see if you are right or not.
Um, so Right, one, one, let's move on.
Uh, so today we're gonna talk about, um, sort of the history again of Bookster and how you've got to be where you are.
We have touched on this, I think in earlier episodes, but it's good to maybe explore it a little bit further, uh, and, and talk about the process and, and your thinking behind ev doing everything.
Um, obviously we know from previous episodes that, uh, you started as a sort of maybe a more general company, uh, doing sort of more general things for clients.
Um, so perhaps just for listeners who maybe have forgotten perhaps a quick overview of what you did do before Bookster became Bookster, if you wouldn't mind. Minute 3
- Yeah.
So we formed our company, um, kind of off the back of another company being sold, but when we formed it in 2007, Bookster didn't exist, so it wasn't a thing.
We formed it and essentially at that point we had some software that was a content management system for the web that we'd written.
So for sort of directories of things, um, you know, listing things and searching, uh, things on a website, um, whether that was, uh, sup suppliers of, of products or campsites and caravan parks or properties, holiday properties or, um, lists of members of a, you know, membership organizations.
Uh, kind of very broad, but a, um, content management system that had all sorts of functionality, allowed people to log in Minute 4
- and update their content, et cetera.
Um, so we had clients, um, and the events industry we had, uh, at, uh, we als we also had something that allowed people to book things, I suppose that's relatively important.
So we had clients in the events industry, clients in the, uh, the theater industry.
We had clients, uh, in publishing.
So publishers used our content management system.
Uh, we had clients, what else? Uh, the clients in, uh, Moto gp, uh, racing, uh, who, who else? We had, um, all sorts basically.
Uh, and essentially we were, we made most of our money really through contracts with clients to do work mainly, and it was sort of hourly work.
So they would pay us to, uh, manipulate Minute 5
- or update our platform or make changes to their website and, you know, we would quote for work and uh, charge for it.
That was mostly how we were making our money.
Right.
And I guess that's probably the way a lot of web companies start perhaps in, in doing that and getting a foot in the door.
Yeah, so I think most, uh, web agencies, you might call them, so people who build websites for people, um, that's how they operate.
They might build WordPress websites, say, and they charge, um, one-off fee or, um, hourly fees for building the website.
Uh, they may be involved in hosting them and they can charge a little bit for that, but they're, uh, essentially mostly charging for their hourly work.
Um, uh, or they might be, yeah, we were sort Minute 6
- of contractors to some extent.
You know, we were building new bits of software for people based on their specifications to some extent.
They said, this is how we want it to work.
And we would, you know, we'd have an input, obviously, but mainly it was kind of very heavily led by the client in terms of what they wanted.
So yes, that there are lots and lots of people in that, uh, state where they, yeah.
That's what they do is their business model.
Mm-Hmm.
They charge people for their, uh, services basically in that way, whether it's web agency or software developers, um, or contracting software developers, et cetera.
Yeah.
So we were, that's really what we were doing.
And I mean, how long did you do that for then? Um, so we did that just doing that really for a couple of years.
Well, actually, I mean, uh, Minute 7
- it wasn't like we stopped doing it immediately.
It was a kind of phase out.
So, um, yeah, Bookster, um, came about as an idea in at the end of 2008 roughly.
And our idea with for that was, um, and I think we did this because, you know, like lots of other people, we wanted to be able to build something that, um, we could sell as a software product, really as a software service.
Um, and yeah, we had this idea of a book now button for your holiday rental website.
You could pay us a monthly fee and, uh, set your property up and allow you to take direct bookings on your website.
That was the point of it.
Um, and it would be, yeah, software as a service.
Um, and so we started out, uh, Minute 8
- with no clients and slowly but surely we had one or two clients, but, um, still vast majority of our business was, um, made piecemeal or hourly work.
Um, so yeah, we were really continuing to do that for a good seven, eight years.
Definitely.
I mean, we still do some work like that, but Mm-Hmm.
Uh, it's not where we make most of our money.
Right.
So I'm, I'm interested, I mean, we'll talk about, um, you know, this further.
I'm gonna go back a step though.
Just I'm interested, you've mentioned a few podcasts before this, it's just about this idea of having this book now button.
Um, I mean, it sounds like when you say it's kind of a revolutionary idea that changes the course of the company and everything.
I mean, book now button is not an original idea, Minute 9
- I'm guessing, but it obviously was important enough to change your way of working.
So this is a very, uh, it's very difficult to put yourself in that position in 2007, but virtually nobody took instant direct bookings for holiday rentals in 2007.
No.
Right.
Okay.
It was very, very rare.
Right.
Okay.
So, um, this is, yeah, people will forget what state things we're in, I suppose, in different, uh, times, but, um, yeah, based, if you bear in mind, I dunno when Airbnb was formed, but Airbnb, uh, 2000, well idea 2012 maybe, something like that.
Um, and the, you know, websites like, um, holidaylettings.co.uk or HomeAway or any of these businesses, they were all Minute 10
- sending inquiries.
So you would basically, you would send an inquiry to your holiday letting a person, owner or company, and they would come back and, you know, most of the exchange would be done over email.
Um, taking direct bookings, allowing someone to put their card in and book a holiday rental was actually very, very rare.
Some of the larger companies might be doing it, but certainly as an individual property owner, it was very difficult.
Um, so in terms of, uh, being early and seeing that, we were very early actually.
Okay.
So we were definitely ahead of the curve, I suppose.
And, um, I mean, it was obviously what was going to happen, but there weren't that many other people, you know, doing that. Minute 11
- Um, and was it that, Sorry, I, I was gonna say certainly with our sort of previous business, so the reason we had this capacity to take online booking was that, um, in our previous business with Karen Site Finder, which was, uh, which we had, well, I was involved with from 2002 ated, or 2001 to 2007, and we laterally, we were trying to get online booking up and running, and it was, you know, to, to get holiday parks for Kevin Parks to do that was really, really tough.
Um, so, well That's what I was gonna ask.
Yeah.
I mean, how easy was it then to get clients to either stick with you or change their approach to this new idea that you approached them with? I mean, I think everyone could see, so although we were ahead of the curve probably in terms of Minute 12
- presenting them with something that they could use, um, I think a lot of people knew that that's what they should be doing, or that ultimately it will be like that.
It's kind of a little bit like where electric cars are now or maybe when a couple of years ago, everyone sort of knows that it's going to happen.
Yeah.
Um, but you know, they really, they, they, they'll kinda stick in their own ways taking emails and whatever, and they'll Mm-Hmm.
Come up with their own.
So it was hard as the answer to that question.
But, um, uh, the, the usual objections, uh, were around, um, vetting guests, really, the first one is, that was the first objection.
It's like, oh, well, I, I actually, you know, my holiday home is special and I don't just let anyone stay in it, so I have to vet people and some people I don't let in. Minute 13
- So I, I, and it's usually, you know, around, uh, stag news or end parties and things like that, that's what they're looking to avoid.
Mm-Hmm.
Um, sure.
So yeah, vetting.
The second one is around double booking.
So they don't want, um, you know, they, they basically, it's logging in and making sure your availability's up to date so you don't get a double booking.
That's the main problem.
But I would say the number one objection was, was around, um, uh, yeah, it was around vetting of guests.
Right.
But do you, uh, clearly obviously, you know, got people interested and you're now living the dream, as you say? Yeah, so I, I suppose, um, yeah, slowly we, we got people, um, we got enough interest, we were kind of subsidizing it really to a large extent.
It, it, it existed as a one of the things we were doing, Minute 14
- so we could, yeah, we could slowly improve it over time, uh, add, add some features and functionality so we could broaden its appeal to more people, more holiday rental owners and, and allow them to, uh, I mean, there's all sorts of features and functions that we added, but, and maybe got a bit better at, uh, marketing it as well, I suppose, getting it out there.
Um, up until, um, I dunno, 2019, we didn't actually have any marketing or sales or anything on it.
In fact, yeah.
Until 2020, we had no se zero sales, so no sales person, no sale.
Right.
No one who was job that was to sell it or try and sell it. Minute 15
- Right.
So it was, so there Was no, no, Johnny, There was no, Johnny, Johnny did not exist.
There's no John.
And we've met Johnny already, so people know who Johnny is, so that's fine.
We'll have Johnny back music as well.
And he does the music for his podcast.
Exactly, yeah.
And available for, uh, all sorts of musical jobs, I'm sure.
Hire 'em for something.
Um, so you've, you've now gone from being a sort of general com company doing generalized, I guess, uh, web activity to a company that has a specific product, which is, uh, Bookster, I guess.
Um, and you've got, you've got some in that process.
Did you, when you went back to clients with the, the product, for example, did you lose some clients because of that or did you, did you manage to keep hold of the clients that you had and just, did they adapt to your new way of working? Yeah, so I suppose Minute 16
- because we didn't have, uh, fund, so we weren't funded, we were all organically funded or bootstrapped, whatever you call it.
Um, this process took quite a long time.
And so we did naturally shared some of the clients that we had that were doing, that were using our more general products.
So as we built up Bookster in that niche, as it were, we did, you know, some contracts came to an end, naturally, there were some, and it, and it, and it took a lot.
It was kind of evolved over time.
So we were, um, yeah, I suppose if this is something you are looking to do in your company, um, if you're listening to this, um, we did it over a long period of time, and so that's might not be how you want to do it.
You might want to get to the end state quicker, Minute 17
- but we did it over a long, uh, time.
Now, there were some clients that we effectively fired.
We told them to go and look at elsewhere for services.
We gave them notice and said, we don't think that you're a good fit for where we are going, and we don't think we can provide you with a great service into the future.
And one, there was one particular client that was quite large that we did pretty much told to leave because it was too much of a distraction from Bookster, and they were taking us in directions that we, you know, didn't want to go.
And I suppose that's, that actually if you are wanting to get to where to have a product and to have, you know, a software service more quickly, Minute 18
- you need to, you do need to be able to say no to people quite a lot.
Um, yeah, I mean, hearing that, that must have been quite a, a moment for, for you and for Bookster, I guess, to have to actually get rid of a, a big client like that.
It must be a bit of a scary moment.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was.
And um, it is still quite difficult to say no to people who are offering you money to do certain things, to take, either to take Bookster in a certain direction or add certain functionality.
It's, unless it's something that we already wanted to do or we can really see how it would really benefit FitStar, it's, you kind of have to say no to people.
And that's what's quite tricky when you've made that decision to write, okay, we're going to try and take the company in a direction where we Minute 19
- ultimately have this product that we're gonna try and make stand on its own feet.
You can't spend time building software that's just totally for one particular client, even though they're paying you, and it might seem like they're paying you reasonable amount of money for it because it distracts you from building the product, but it also creates a bunch of software you have to maintain and look after into the future, which sucks up resources.
So yeah, that's, it is quite difficult.
Mm-Hmm.
Um, so your, Your product now then is is very much Bookster led rather than client led.
I mean, you're, you tell them in a sense what you're doing and Yeah.
Either get on board or not, I guess.
Yeah, and I think that's, so it's obviously the right way to say this.
If you're a client listening to this podcast, it's not that we don't listen to clients Minute 20
- and make Bookster better for our clients based on their feedback.
That is, uh, is definitely a big part of trying to make it better, is people will tell you when you're making, when it's really wrong, or they might come up with really great ideas, but that's quite different from a client leading a specific, um, development or a function or paying you specifically to do something is quite, I mean, not, it's like never say never.
If someone said, oh, here's lots and lots and lots of money, will he build it to do this? Then it's going to be difficult to say no to that.
You might say yes and say, right, okay, we'll take that hit because it sure allows us to do all sorts of things.
But you have to be, if it's just a case of them paying your normal hourly rate or something, Minute 21
- or not paying you that much, you, it's yeah.
Being able to say, look, essentially if we're doing this work over here, what we're not doing is something over there, thing over there benefits all of our users.
This over here only benefits a couple of our users.
They are paying us for it, but so how do you say no to them in a nice way or say, look, we might get around to that later, but we just can't do it.
So yeah, it's that you are right.
It's, it's, um, from having projects that are client led to having a product that is client responsive maybe rather than client led.
Okay.
But I mean, I think that's, and for anyone listening who are your clients, I guess, and potential clients, um, I, I think that from an outsider's point of view, sounds like you are a company that will then Minute 22
- focus on the product rather than you, you wanna make the product the best it can be, rather than just doing things for, you know, a bit of money here and there.
You're actually Bookster is always gonna be the best product that you can come up with because you're, you're focused on what you wanna do rather than being distracted, like you say, by other clients saying, oh, can we just add this in? Can we just add this in? And it becomes something that it's not your vision, I guess.
So it's, it's nice to hear or good to hear that Bookster is quite focused on, on what you're doing.
Yeah, absolutely.
I hope people think that, um, and there's sort of two things that feed into that as well is that, uh, pe our clients, it's important that they buy into what we're our sort of philosophy generally.
So you come up with a general philosophy, and we talked about this in the first few, but, uh, they have to buy into what you're doing and perhaps they might have to shift a bit of Minute 23
- how they're operating in order for it to work for them, but mm-hmm.
If they buy into it, that's great.
Um, but yeah, the other thing is that, uh, when we are building anything, and this actually goes back to right at the start as well, is that you're, you're not gonna make software that everybody likes.
And I think accepting that at the start of whatever software product you're doing is quite important, that you, you are not going to build stuff for everyone.
And even the biggest software companies in the world, um, you say Apple or Google or Microsoft, you always speak to people who are like, I hate Apple, or I hate Google, or I'd really never use Microsoft stuff.
Now they're massive, they've got massive broad user bases, Minute 24
- but you're always gonna rub someone up the wrong way with the way that you do something because you're doing it your way.
Um, and even though those, the software, you know, apple, Google, Microsoft Web, they have mass appeal.
So they're, they're doing things that, or the types of products that they're building, have the potential to appeal to lots of people.
Um, which we are not really, we're building something that's relatively niche, but even within that niche, we have to accept that there's some people that we are going to probably run up the wrong the wrong way because of the way that we work.
Um, and it's not, it's not that they don't like us personally, it's just the way we've written our software.
They won't like it, um, because they prefer something that looks a bit different or has operates in a different way or works on their device better or, you know, whatever that may be.
And, but as long as we are, as you say, Minute 25
- we're building something that we think works for a whole bunch of people, works for the people that think that work, that, that, uh, in our niche, um, then we can solely get our own client base, user base and, and expand from there.
And, you know, they'll tell their friends, we'll, you know, we just slowly, organically, uh, build ourselves up.
That's the, that's the plan basically.
And that's how, yeah, I would say if you're starting out and you don't have a product and you're thinking about building one, one of the things to think about is not, not everyone is going to like, what the way that you do you work, so don't try to make it Mm-Hmm.
Appeal to everybody and don't be offended when someone says, oh, I don't, I'm not actually a big fan of your software.
It doesn't really, I don't really like how it works.
Sure, you have, you have to listen, but you also have to accept that that's a possibility. Minute 26
- Yeah.
You're not gonna please everybody all the time in anything you do.
So I think that's a good lesson to put out there.
Um, I guess we're just conscious of time.
Maybe one last question for this podcast, uh, Robin is you talked about your process of going from, you know, generally, uh, general to sort of specific, um, if you were to do it all again, would you have started with a specific project to start product to start with? Or, or would you, have you enjoyed the process of where you've gone and, and where you are now? Or, or, or would you do it differently? Um, it would be nice to have a product that worked more quickly, that we could get a user base more quickly.
I think we've been quite slow in getting a user base up and running be, and it's perhaps because we had lots of these other things, so we didn't, Minute 27
- we weren't forced to get a user base going.
And so I think if we were to do it all again, yeah.
Might force ourselves to, uh, go down the product road a little bit quicker and Okay, try and, yeah, maybe, maybe it'd be a little bit more to when you are taking on these bigger projects, also make sure that you're also got something set aside to continue to build your product that you really want.
I don't think I would go down the, and this is maybe a conversation for another podcast, don't think I would go down the raising money from investors and literally it being the only thing we're doing, and if it doesn't work, it's going to explode and disappear. Minute 28
- I don't think I would go down that road, but that was ma that would mainly be because investors would have a very, they'd be your boss, basically.
And that it's nice not to have that.
Sure.
But, uh, in terms of transitioning, yeah.
Might turn it a bit quicker.
Okay.
But I guess, you know, the route you've taken is, has got you to where you are now and you're providing, you know, a good product for a good, much, a good amount of people.
So, um, so no, I guess everything has its pros and cons, but no, it's just interesting to hear, uh, your thoughts.
And for anyone listening, you know, should they go into a market with a product or should they spend some time developing other things as well.
I suppose it's, it's different everyone, I guess at the end of the day.
Yeah, right.
Well, look, it's almost 30 minutes of this podcast.
So we've, we've, we've chatted for a while today, so thank you for, that's interesting to hear about the process a bit more involved Minute 29
- than, than we've done in the past.
So that's a, a good episode there.
I think.
Um, if anyone had any questions on what they've heard today or any of the other previous podcasts do remember, you can send them in to podcast@booksterhq.com.
Um, that's podcast@bookstorehq.com.
Uh, we've also got our sister podcast, which is smashing your holiday rental goals, uh, that's, uh, hosted by Kelly, who was on our podcast, uh, or is going to be on our podcast depending on which order you listen to these podcasts in.
But you'll, uh, you'll hear her or we'll have heard her, uh, anyway, so I'd recommend going to listen to that podcast as well and leave a favorable review on that one, please.
And also this podcast if you can as well.
Um, Robin, thank you for your time today.
Thank you very much.
And, uh, we shall meet again soon and see if your predictions Minute 30
- for the football was correct or not.
What's Your prediction? My prediction? Uh, okay.
Uh, well my prediction then.
I'll say it's probably gonna be 2 1 2.
Germany.
Germany.
Oh, man.
Yeah, you, I'm afraid.
Um, but anyway, one of us will be right or whatever.
Uh, right.
Okay.
In that case, thank you again.
Uh, thank you for listening, and we'll see or speak to you all very soon and take care Till then.
Bye-Bye bye.
Follow along is Bookster discuss their journey and their inner Work Work.
Thank you for joining us, and we hope that you find these conversations insightful and ultimately helpful.
I'm joined today as always by CEO
More Episodes of The Bookster Podcast
- Epsiode 10: Bootstrapped Marketing 20th Sep 2024
- Epsiode 9: Generally specialists 15th Aug 2024
- Epsiode 8: Are we agile? 10th Jul 2024
